Pro Se Legal Access Survey II

Following are comments from FALDP's Legal Access Survey II. The survey is ongoing and can be found here - Pro Se Legal Access Survey II. Comments are in answer to the question:

What advice would you give a friend who was considering proceeding pro se?

The comments below are repeated verbatim, except for correction of spelling and grammar, and removing personal information.

Read many pro-se websites and read extensively the case law covering the issue that you are litigating.

In a divorce, if you start Pro se, end pro se. Hiring an attorney, at least for me was an utter night mare. my attorney took my money, filed a motion for attorney fees from ex husband won the award, sat on my case for a year and then Withdrew weeks from the Final Judgment of Equitable Distribution. I hired the attorney to issue subpoenas, review financials and present, no, finish my divorce. He did none of what I asked and now I cannot even afford to hire someone to help with documents. IF I had just stayed my own course and not lost faith in my abilities, I would already be finished with this never ending divorce.

The advice I would give a friend is to be prepared to challenge yourself in believing that what you are about to indulge in is what you are ready to endure. Because it is not a piece of cake and it requires a lot of perseverance.

Hard work but very rewarding

Find a lawyer

Read everything. Fill the forms out, walk away, read again, and make corrections if necessary. Also get sample cases similar to your own, contact the Court clerk and request clarification. Be calm and stand strong

Do not. Lawyers lie, in ways that you won't know until it is too late. Everything they say or write has double meaning, and the court will see it in ways you never expected.

Become a lawyer.

Prepare for months of reading & research

Fully read what plaintiff sends you

Get info before case goes to court.

Be diligent

Read carefully the instructions of every form found on line. Always ask for the next step when filing a doc. Act immediately, do not wait for the grace period. Check on line the case and ask the Clerk of Courts if there's something you do not understand.

I am accomplishing more pre se than with attorney. I paid way too much for nothing. I am in SC now but this case is in Florida. It is frustrating and time consuming to try to follow the rule but the e-file portal and people are great. Wish there was a consultant attorney to explain confusion only. Like when I filed a motion to dismiss am I supposed to do anything else or wait. Some answers I am not able to find online.

Do more research before you proceed.

I could not get legal assistance since my soon to be ex husband had a consultation with them but not using them so there is a conflict of interest. I cannot find a lawyer to work for free. Self help is not available to me because husband has an attorney.

Depends on the circumstances.

Find all the forms you will/may need throughout the process, download, print, and READ the instructions for each form thoroughly. Understand the process for your particular situation. Be timely with your filings and if you are going to be late, notify the opposing parties attorney at a minimum; document all communication (recommend written communication at all times). Research, research, research! Stick to the facts! Chances are the lawyer on the opposing side has been fed a bunch of lies. In my opinion, they appear to believe anything they're told when they are paid a $5K retainer and charge $250/hr. Do not let the lawyer from the Petitioner's/Respondents side bully you. THEY will attempt to make you look ignorant. They will TRY to be dominant and may even threaten you (and WHEN they do threaten you, file a complaint with the Florida Bar) As a Pro Se litigant, you have rights too; review and understand them. Expect the unexpected stay COOL and CONFIDENT under fire. Do not expect Judges to be "black and white" when it comes to interpreting the Florida Statutes.

Do not trust opposing attorney

It can be very stressful.

Find out all angles before proceeding as things aren't always what they appear to be. You don't have it "knocked" just because the law appears to be on your side. Am hoping I'm wrong when the thought "justice is only for the rich" crosses my mind. Am seeking relief in a probate litigation matter.

Stick to the facts and not personal or emotional feelings you have on the subject. sometimes people don't realize there is a difference

Do your research.

Do lots of research and make sure you have the proper forms and they are filled out correctly.

Just keep swimming.

Study, study, study, then review, review, review! Know your Constitution inside out. Understand that no other law (international, Admiralty & Maritime, UCC/contract, Equity, Trust, Civil, Criminal, State/Constitutions/statutes/codes/ordinances/regulations/policies/rules, +) supersede it. Use GPO/FDsys Library of Congress, official reporters, Law schools, verify everything, don't take a lawyers advice, the judicial system is corrupt, everything is about money, truth and honor are dead, legal is not the same as lawful, common law pisses off judges, prosecutors, clerks, attorneys. Stay in honor, be courteous, get everything on record, claim nothing, answer questions with questions ....

Do it!

If you can afford an attorney get one. If not become diligent on looking up FL statues, laws,motions,properly filing motions,what just arguments you have and etc

Research and use as many resources as possible

Find out if you qualify for free legal aid. If you are not eligible, exhaust every effort in gathering the money for an attorney. Especially if the case involves children or custody.

Pro Se Survey II

In 2012 we offered the first in our pro se survey series. The information we request on this survey builds off of the first one, and hopefully makes up for some of the information gaps. We ask for your name and address, but you are not required to provide that information to complete the survey. Providing your personal information is completely voluntary. Thank you to all of you who contribute. If you are a pro se litigant, please complete our survey. If you do not want to be contacted after completing it, we won't contact you - ever. This is in no way a ploy to collect your information. We really want the data; and you can remain completely anonymous.

CLICK HERE TO COMPLETE THE SURVEY

Pro se litigants are often overwhelmed and face multiple obstacles in pursuing or defending their legal matters. As far as we can tell no one, no government entity, no private groups makes a concerted effort to find information about pro se litigants. There are plenty of assumptions. One of the most prevalent assumptions is that pro se litigants simply cannot afford an attorney. Another assumption is that pro se litigants lack formal education. We want to know whether these assumptions are correct. Whether there is, in fact, much more to the story. 

The legal system belongs to all citizens. It does not belong to attorneys, the judges, or the court staff. Our tax dollars pay the court staff and the judges salaries. We understand that the court prefers for consumers to be represented by counsel. Consumers lack of information about procedure is real. Florida procedure is labyrinthine and there are few reliable sources for consumers to learn about the steps and rules that must be followed. 

Five Things to Ask Your Document Preparer

Are you a member of the Florida Association of Legal Document Preparers?

FALDP, the Florida Association of Legal Document Preparers is a statewide trade association specifically for Florida's nonlawyer document preparers? Membership is limited to those who meet standards set by the association and agree to abide by the terms of the FALDP Pledge. Visit www.faldp.org to learn more.


Do you use Florida Supreme Court approved forms?

Florida document preparers should use Florida Supreme Court approved forms whenever they are available. Almost all of the family law forms and landlord/ tenant forms are Supreme Court approved. For other types of document preparation projects, such as bankruptcy and immigration -- there are no Florida Supreme Court approved forms available - your document preparer will use the federal forms for these projects.

Do you provide all the forms that I need for my document preparation project?

Sometimes it isn't clear exactly what will be needed after the initial paper work, but it is important to know whether additional forms will be provided. For example, your document preparer cannot know ahead of time whether or not the other party will answer a petition or complaint. The next step may depend on the actions of the other party. However, it is important to ask whether your document preparer will prepare additional forms if needed, whether those additional forms are included in the initial cost, and if not, how much the cost will be. For example, if the other party is properly served but doesn't answer, your document preparer can prepare a Motion and Order for Default. Some document preparers will include those documents at no extra charge; other document preparers may charge a nominal fee. Ask.

What if the clerk says I need a certain document, and you didn't provide it, will you prepare it if I need it?

Good question. Sometimes local rules change, and your document preparer may not be aware of all local rules. Most reputable document preparers will provide and prepare a local form at no additional charge.

What if there are errors in the documents?

Most document preparers will correct errors at no additional charge, even if the error was not their fault. For example, a misspelled street name that was the customer's mistake. Many document preparers will also make minor revisions at no charge.

How do I check to make sure a document preparer is reputable?

Florida document preparers are not regulated by the State of Florida or the Florida Bar. You can search Rip Off Report, and the document preparer's local Better Business Bureau. These are not 100% accurate, but may give you an overall idea about that document preparer's reputation. Many document preparers are members of the Florida Association of Legal Document Preparers, and you can find out more about a certain document preparer by visiting the site - www.faldp.org - or calling and asking about them - 800-515-0496.

FALDP Annual Membership Drive is in Full Swing

 

The Florida Association of Legal Document Preparers is proud to announce another Annual Membership Drive. Only $32.50 to join through January 31, 2014.

Take advantage of the FALDP annual membership drive and join today. On February 1, fees go right back up to $65. This offer is for new Premium Members only. For more information about membership, please visit - http://www.faldp.org/premium-membership.html

FALDP offers:

Education – Online courses – We now offer eight online courses designed to increase members' knowledge, expertise, and bottom line. Course content includes – debt defense, immigration, post conviction document preparation, landlord/ tenant issues; personal bankruptcy; divorce; estate planning; and an introductory course in preparing Florida documents. Learn more - http://www.faldp.org/Online-Courses.html

Webinars – FALDP hosts regular webinars about various issues that inform and educate legal document preparers and pro se litigants, including the virtual business model; estate planning documents; bankruptcy; the unauthorized practice of law; marketing strategies; and divorce document preparation.

Credibility – Membership in the most prestigious Florida trade association for legal document preparers creates instant trust in the minds of potential customers. Consumers know that members of FALDP must meet certain educational standards to join, and must agree to abide by the “FALDP Pledge” to remain a member in good standing.

Networking – Sharing and information exchange among members ensures a collaborative culture where the sum – FALDP – is greater than its parts. For the first time, Florida legal document preparers can reach out to colleagues for help, information, and referrals. Meet your peers and colleagues at the Fifth Annual FALDP Conference scheduled for the fall of 2014, details to be announced.

Opportunity -  Consumer requests for document preparation services are given as referrals to members based on the member's subjects of expertise and geographic area. Members are listed in the FALDP site Membership Directory in their home county and two adjacent counties. As part of your membership you also are entitled to your own Mini-Page on our site.

              Founded in 2010, and growing stronger by the day. We ARE changing the World.

                                                           Come Grow With Us!

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"...no exalted villains above the control of our laws ..."

The Wisdom of Native Americans

Vs. American Law

“In the government you call civilized, the happiness of the people is constantly sacrificed to the splendor of empire. Hence the origin of your codes of criminal and civil laws; hence your dungeons and prisons. We have no prisons; we have no pompous parade of courts; we have no written laws; and yet judges are as highly revered among us as they are among you, and their decisions are as much regarded. We have among us no exalted villains above the control of our laws. Daring wickedness is here never allowed to triumph over helpless innocence. The estates of widows and orphans are never devoured by enterprising swindlers. We have no robbery under the pretext of law.”

• Joseph Brant (Thayendanegea) Mohawk
  

Upon reading the above quote I was struck by its simple truth. This quote is oh so relevant today. Even in our challenged economy, we have a legal system that is heavily weighted in favor of those who can afford attorney's fees.

The next to the last line -- “The estates of widows and orphans are never devoured by enterprising swindlers.” -- decries usual events in America. My mother’s lawyer charged her estate $8,000.00 to probate one asset -- her homestead, valued at just $125,000.00. No court hearing was required. The Petition for Summary Administration was filed at the same time as the proposed Final Judgment of Summary Administration. The probate forms were typed in one sitting and filed with the clerk’s office in one filing. My mother’s estate paid her lawyer $8,000.00 for typing. There was no will contest, no family controversy. Our “civilized” legal system allows lawyers to exorbitantly bill legal consumers.

I am readily reminded of the cost of divorce when reading the last sentence of Chief Brant’s quote, -- “We have no robbery under the pretext of law.” If divorcing parties can agree, becoming divorced is, once again, a typing task and one brief hearing before the Judge -- simple. But all too often divorce does not happen “simply”, When one party retains an attorney; the other party must follow suit for simple self-preservation. Each party retains an attorney, with retainer fees starting at $2,000 each and quickly escalating from there. If the parties agree; and sign a Marital Settlement Agreement, then the final hearing occurs. However, most often, once attorneys are involved, the parties’ “agreeing” does not happen quickly or simply. Once the parties agree, the attorneys’ billable hours must cease. No disagreements = no billable hours.

Achieving court access can be affordable. As more litigants represent themselves and take charge of their own legal matters, the challenge of court access for lack of money will eventually resolve itself. Citizens are increasingly, by choice or economics, representing themselves and realizing the self-empowerment of taking charge of their own legal matters. 

Guest Post by Julie Jefferson of Freedom Rings 

It IS Rocket Science

I like to say - only building a space ship is rocket science - I know that my statement isn't entirely true. Spaceships and rockets are completely different. My point, however, is the obvious one, that only certain things are so complicated they cannot be figured out by an intelligent and motivated layman. Rocket science being one of those too complicated for most of us to figure out.

Unfortunately, all too often, another one of those things too complicated to figure out is our legal system. Some judges and lawyers smirk at the challenges pro se litigants face -- others are helpful and sympathetic. The fact is most pro se litigants would prefer to hire an attorney, but cannot afford the price. Eat and pay rent; or pay an attorney? Some court clerks seem to take pleasure in saying - sorry, I can't answer that, I cannot give you legal advice. This cryptic response is often given to pro se litigants in answer to even the simplest procedural question. Baffling to consumers who thought the clerks job was to help them.

Suppose you had to build a house. It isn't your idea to build a house, you must build it because the government said to. And you need to build it to protect yourself from the enemy. If you don't build it and soon-- there will be adverse consequences, they promise. If you are a construction person, builder, contractor, carpenter, or handyman exclude yourself from this scenario. You know you could do this if need be. I'm talking to everyone else, all of you -- servers, salespeople, doctors, lawyers, butchers, bakers, candlestick makers, and even rocket scientists. What if you were not only told you must build the house -- but you were given no tools at all, were given a strict deadline, and were given no information whatsoever about the rigorous specifications required. On top of that you are met with hostile adversaries at every turn, maybe an irate neighbor, telling you that they've had enough of the noise. And maybe a building inspector continually over your shoulder demanding that you adhere to rules you never heard of. The enemy alternately lurks waiting to feed on your mistakes; or attacks full on at the slightest whiff of your weakness.

You're allowed to research online to your heart's content. And you do so, feverishly, repeatedly, until late at night and, long past the point of comprehending the meaning of the court cases which may as well be written in Swahili. You're allowed to ask friends and family for help and advice. And your family and friends do their best to help, but they don't know any more about building than you do. You're even allowed to pay someone to build it for you. To your dismay, however, you quickly discover that the only people that really know how to build a house are really expensive. And they seem to relish giving half answers to your questions; watching you make amateur mistakes; and finally smirking at the result. The building inspector threatens to fine you if you don't build it just right exactly according to his invisible plans. And he tells you quickly hurry up now, lest you fall behind schedule. The endlessly irate neighbor comes calling at least once a day to tell you to please be quiet already and don't forget to clean up the debris before it blows all over the street.

Building a house may prove too difficult for most motivated laymen. So much easier to start with a doghouse, birdhouse, or shed first. And the same is true for legal do it yourselfers. Small claims, the people's, court, can be a good place to start, where the rules are somewhat relaxed and the judges expect pro se litigants to do their best and muddle through. But, pro se litigants don't always have the luxury of choosing to start their legal do it yourself education with something manageable like small claims court. And even there, with an attorney as an adversary, a pro se litigant can be quickly out played.

All rocket science. Just like pro se litigants are totally lost and overwhelmed by the obstacles they encounter in trying to handle their legal matter on their own, so would you non-construction people face similar challenges in building a house. May as well build a spaceship.

Vision or Mirage?

The following is displayed on the Florida Supreme Court's website:

Mission of the Florida Judicial Branch

The mission of the judicial branch is to protect rights and liberties, uphold and interpret the law, and provide for the peaceful resolution of disputes.

Vision of the Florida Judicial Branch

Justice in Florida will be accessible, fair, effective, responsive, and accountable. To be accessible, the Florida justice system will be convenient, understandable, timely, and affordable to everyone.

To be fair, it will respect the dignity of every person, regardless of race, class, gender or other characteristic, apply the law appropriately to the circumstances of individual cases, and include judges and court staff that reflect the community's diversity.

To be effective, it will uphold the law and apply rules and procedures consistently and in a timely manner, resolve cases with finality, and provide enforceable decisions.

To be responsive, it will anticipate and respond to the needs of all members of society, and provide a variety of dispute resolution methods.

To be accountable, the Florida justice system will use public resources efficiently, and in a way that the public can understand.

Do you believe that Florida's judicial branch makes a continuing and diligent effort to realize the vision? I have my opinion. I want to hear yours. Please comment.

The Perfectly Acceptable Legal Solution – Better Than Good Enough

When faced with a legal question, the immediate problem is the difficulty in knowing which specific course of action is the right course. Many consumers tackle this by educating themselves. For example, a divorcing couple is almost always faced with multiple decisions that may affect the rest of their lives, and the lives of their children.

Hiring an attorney could be a possibility. But, for many consumers, the costs are so high, that hiring an attorney cannot even be considered. Pro bono legal help is nearly non-existent. Legal aid resources are spread so thin that many who qualify are turned away. Like it or not, many consumers have no other choice, but to go pro se.

Information about divorce and family law is readily available online through the wonders of the internet. But – there is so much information now, the next problem is that consumers must sort through the zillions of web pages that come up. Information overload in the information age.

The Florida Supreme Court and the Florida Bar graciously create and publish cookie cutter forms for family law matters. Sadly, (or not so sadly for legal document preparers), the cookie cutter forms and their accompanying instructions are confusing for many pro se litigants. They are written so that a reading level above high school level is needed to comprehend them. The difficulty of understanding the forms and instructions; the unfamiliar subject matter; the stress of divorce; and the importance of the matters at hand create multiple hurdles for the average pro se. The more mentally agile and motivated consumers become adept at leaping through the flaming legal hoops to reach their personal family legal goals – divorce, child custody, family adoption, property settlement, child support, and so on.

Enter the Florida legal document preparer. The Florida Bar would prefer we call ourselves – non lawyers. I rather like the term – Unlawyer – but it hasn't quite caught on yet. Legal self help, pure legal DIY, and the use of legal document preparers is often referred to “in the literature” as “good enough” legal services. I would like to change that term. I think the “good enough” term is damning with faint praise, a backhanded compliment. I prefer the term – perfectly acceptable legal services. As in – documents prepared by legal document preparers are perfectly acceptable. Or this standard form is perfectly acceptable. Now doesn't that sound better than “good enough”? Wouldn't a consumer be happier to purchase perfectly acceptable legal services than good enough legal services?

According to a recent article by Michael DeBord on Southern California Public Radio, www.scpr.org - “LegalZoom IPO: Be afraid, lawyers! Be very afraid!”

“The legal professional is being totally re-arranged by the economic downturn. Law firms have imploded. Law school grads — who used to be able to bank on fat salaries in exchange for 100-hour work weeks at big firms, if they attended top programs ... — are struggling to find jobs. Law is no longer the often-boring but generally reliably lucrative escape hatch it once was for decades of career-confused liberal arts majors.”

LegalZoom announced that it will be going public soon. According to reports, in 2011 490,000 orders were placed through their website; over two million customers have been served over the past decade; and their revenue in 2011 was $156 million. In addition to their legal document services LegalZoom now offers attorney legal services by subscription.

The benefit for consumers and for legal document preparers everywhere is that LegalZoom's high media profile brings credibility and legitimacy to the legal document preparation industry. They are successfully paving the way for other online document preparation providers to market their services more aggressively. And there is plenty of room for plenty of players, niche businesses, and support companies.

With legal fees averaging $200. per hour, consumers increasingly welcome legal document preparers services as – perfectly acceptable. Much better than good enough.